McHenry County Blog

Cal - year round school offers another advantage - it takes care of the child care issue that comes up every summer. Families where two parents work have to make different arrangements for the kids each June. This would make thier planning easier.

Unfortunately, most year round programs I have seen just take the 15 week summer and spread it around as breaks between quarters, often resulting in three week breaks four times a year. No actual improved utilization occurrs, just the illusion of it.
 

Guess it depends on the plan. I would find such a spread-around of vacation time an improvement, but I understand your point.
 

Cal,

Besides the increased utilization of the buildings through year-round school, we need to address the design of the buildings themselves.

We've often heard as a counter to "why not add a story to building xxx?" that the original building was not designed to accomodate another story. Why not?

Also, will classrooms be undersized to forcibly produce low class sizes? What happens later when people come to their senses about class size and realize that larger classes are not possible due to politically motivated design flaws in the original buildings?

As far as the education fund goes, now that D-300 will see a sizeable infusion of new cash, how will they prevent the teachers union from bargaining it away?
 

Jim & Cathy Peschke:

I agree that there are changes that need to be made in teachers contracts. I have issues with tenure - guaranteed job regardless of performance. I don't agree with automatic step raise increases for continued education. I think there should be rewards in place for teachers that continue education in the courses they teach (ie a math teacher who gets a masters degree in math... a science teacher who takes advanced classes in biology... not rewards for more education classes).

I have visited the champion.org and your website and have seen suggestions on merit pay for teachers. At it's most basic level it makes sense but the problem comes in at the evaluation level. How do we measure a successful teacher? Test scores? I already think our education system is suffering under a "teach to the test" philosophy.

Also, will teachers want to take on the challenge of the children with learning disabilities or behavior promblems?

A merit pay system also assumes teachers have ultimate control over the education of our children. Learning has to start at home. Parents have to be involved in every step. They have to help with homework and promote an environment of learning. They have to make sure their children get enough sleep. They have to make sure they are at school everyday. Unfortunately, not all parents take their job seriously.

It will be interesting to see the contract negotiated this summer with D-300 teachers under such a bright spotlight.

For anybody that has ever had an outstanding teacher ... I think you would agree, you can't pay them enough for their talents.
 

For a big, dramatic reform, try this on for size..

http://www.extremewisdom.com/essays/archives/2005/10/the_extreme_wis.php

1. Abolish Local taxation for schools (I'm in the process of adding a 14th Amendment issue. The current structure is "educational aparteid") This is a 60-75% cut in property taxes.

2. Enact Martire's HB750 (BUT ONLY if #1 goes with it)

This is a net $2- billion tax cut for IL businesses and taxpayers

___

3. Convert every public school in IL to an independent Charter managed by Principal, teachers, & parents who choose that school.

4. Abolish (Phase out is necessary) the "District" as an entity.

5. Equally fund every child in the state with a $7-8500 (indexed to inflation) scholarship redeemable at any school (public or private)

6. Repeal all state mandates and replace with an NAEP style testing regime for every child. (Test Yearly. Use broad content standards with different set of questions year over year)

7. Enact an Education Savings Account component so that parents that find a school that is CHEAPER than the Scholarship amount can save the money for college, tutoring, and other expenses.

___

There are a 1000 details that would need to be addressed, all of which could be handled during a transition/phase in process.

We are entering a 21st century world with a 17th century school system. It has to go.

Please note that all of the excellent tertiary suggestions made here fit perfectly into my larger model.

I realize that this is currently politically impossible, but aside from that, there is no intellectually sound argument against it.

Our civilization will eventually have the above education model, or it will fall to one that does.
 

Bystander -

How do we measure a sucessful teacher? In business environments we measure a sucessful trainer based on wether they teach the material (observation), student feedback (sometimes tests, end of class demonstrations, presentations).

Would it be similar in school?

Merit pay systems are based on progress against goals. They adapt to the starting point and measure progress. When I get a project, I do not have control over how it was handled before received it, but I know I have to make progress against my goal.

How do we measure a succesful student? Shouldn't the measure of a teacher be the progress of thier students against the expected gain. We test early and often now, can't we expand that system and add observation evaluations?
 

Monelson:

Sure, in the business world, if you take-over a project - you are right you have no control over how it was handled before. But once you take over - you will have complete control.

Even after teachers take over the "project" they don't have that complete control over results. They can teach the material but will the student do the required homework or study the material for an upcoming test at home? That is out of their control.

Who will do the evaluations? Parents? Principals? Independent Committee? What makes a good teacher can be very subjective. Some parents believe in a lot of homework others don't. Some parents value a teacher that approaches subjects creatively and teach "out of the box". Others like a structured learning environment.

Different kids respond to different teaching methods. How will this factor in?

Who sets the goals? The parents or the teachers? Will it be an individual goal for each student or measured against the class as a whole?

Does more years of service or more classes automatically make a better teacher? No, I don't think so.

There is no easy answer. Maybe we should administor tests to teachers on the materials that they are responsible for teaching their students. Maybe their pay should be tied to their own test results. How well do the teachers know the material they are teaching?
 

I am not sure what business world you are refering to. In mine I have actual control over few of the factors. Yet I must get on with it.

Interestingly enough, where I used to work, we went through a series of changes to drive from a culture of entitlement - people thought they should get raises because a year had passed and wasn't it time for raises - to one of performance management and I heard all the same arguments against the change - " I can't be held responsible for my inventory if sales gives me the wrong forecast" or "well, if the customer doesn't give me the facilities on time, how am I supposed to make the date"

It is a complex issue, and the journey of a thousand miles begins with one foot step. Maybe we could ask teachers how to judge thier performance? Would the union be a problem? They have resited pay for performance before.

As for who sets the goals, it would not be unlike today. The board, probably through the administration would set high level goals. Administration, crirriculum committes and building principals should translate the boards big picture goals to measurable goals for departments and individuals. The key here is that the goals must be in the open, known to all. Shining light on something has a tremendous effect on how it grows.

I am not sure testing teachers is the best answer either. Just because they know the subject, does that mean they will teach it.

Lastly, isn't the principal the first line manager. They would be responsible for the evaluations.

All of this is great to discuss, but my real question is how one could effect such change. With all the factors - IEA-NEA, local vs state control, wars over funding, etc, how does one make such a change. In my opinion, Connect 300 was started for one purpose, build a constituency for the referendum. Did they really change anything besides adopt already decided on policy like "lets lower class sizes? Am I being to harsh here?

Cal - any thought on how to get real change here? Ideas like Extreme Wisdom's will probably scare some people, but how would we get it done?
 

Today my mind is not on buildings, costs,salaries/benefits, etc.

It's on teaching.

Setting aside the warm fuzzies about a favorite teacher inspiring "us" for the moment, I believe we have forgotten or ignored the difference between "teaching" and "telling".

Re: Pre K thru 12 - Whatever comes - I want teachers to teach the subject....not their INTERPRETATION of the subject.

Teachers who have the intention of giving their personal agendas and political agendas served up with subject matter should be teaching in college, where students or their parents pay the bills, and where, presumably, a student has reached a point of being able to tell the difference between the subject and an opinion.

With only a few exceptions - educators would remove themselves from being too heavily involved in the personal lives of our children. Yes, there will always be children whose family lives contribute little to their growth and potential - and they certainly need the extra assistance. However, I think the school industry has become drunk with power (for want of a better description at the moment) to the point of forgetting the line that separates educator from family. Everyone can give love and children will thrive on love. Roles need to be separate and defined to avoid encroaching on each other's "turf" so-to-speak.

Teachers would also get out of the business of being critics. Art for instance should never be graded based on a teacher's perception of what is good or bad. Grade understanding of techniques - and never ever say something cannot be done in a creative course.
 

Anyone can teach a bright child. I have undergraduate course work in education and also spent time working in a SEDOL setting. I also spent many of summers working with both mentally (EMH and TMH) and physically handicapped children. A good teacher can reach difficult to teach children.

Bystander it sounds like you are touting a bunch of union rhetoric.

It a teacher is incapable of reaching the difficult to teach get rid of them and find someone with the mindset who can.

That is the problem with our public education system. I only want teachers in a classroom with the can do attitude. Tenure does not allow us to have that. It is time to get rid of tenure.

If a school refuses to hire people with that attitude parents should be able to send their children elsewhere. We do not have school choice we have a monopoly. We have teachers who say it can not be done without parental help. So if a child is stuck with crappy parents the education system is not going to give him or her a step up in society. It is that mind set and the failure of our public school system that creates a cycle of poverty and is failing hundreds of thousands of minority students year after year.


Get rid of the current system that allows people with bystanders attitude and replace them with people like Jaime A. Escalante.

I do not want teachers in a classroom who can not do it without parental help. Because some children just don't have parental help. I want teachers in a classroom who can reach the most difficult to teach child even without parental help. I want a teacher who is great and can teacher 30 or more kids in a class. I do not want teachers in a classroom who can not handle 30 kids.

Respect is earned not commanded. It a teacher is incapable of earning respect of parents and their students they should not be in a classroom either.

How is it the longer a child is in the public education system the further they fall behind their counterparts in foreign countries?

Cathy
 

I would really like to hear some one justify the tenure system. It makes some sense at the University level where the "publish or die" system trumps tenure and professors are educators and reasherchers, etc. But why do we use it in k-12? What benefit does it bring to the community?

The biggest problem with tenure is that it is off the table. Untouchable. Why?
 

Tenure equals protection.

Protection equals votes/"soldiers"/following the party line.

Therefore tenure maintains the status quo. No changes.

Everyone in power stays there.

Power is happy because power equals money.

Follow the money.............

However - status quo does not mean what's best for children, society or education. Status quo equals what's best for power.

Power protects tenure.

Tenure equals protection - and so on and so on........a mobius strip recipe for mediocrity and financial mismanagement.
 

4Piggybanks2 -

Hey, I understand all of that. But that is not justification, that is rationalization. And it's from you, who I do not think agrees with it. In the spirit of this new section, I would like to hear someone who believes it is a good thing to tell me why. And I would love to even hear IEA\NEA's sping on it.
 

Cal -

You did what Hunterandscout and Dave suggested and they have not joined in? Whats up with that?
 

Dave got offended elsewhere.

I have no idea about hunterandscout.
 

Game players don't really care.

They assign busy work and split and chuckle.

The money is coming in - there won't be any watchful eyes from the supporters with their lofty promises. Their work is done.

It's hard to fit financial watchdogging into sports/music/etc. schedules.
 

The focus on tertiary issues like merit pay, tenure, and union contracts, and year-round schooling demonstrate that the education establishment has all of us just where they want us.

Arguing over issues that, even if enacted, will merely be co-opted by the Establishment.

(Year round school is a great idea, but will merely create the call for automatic 25% pay boosts that will cause another batch of referenda)

Any of the issues mentioned here, if addressed inside the existing pardigm, will achieve virtually nothing. Changing the entire paradigm is the only option.

You don't like the legislative plan I laid out? Let me simplify it for you...

Fund Children, Not Districts.

or...

Fund Children, Not Systems.

Anything less is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
 

Man, you don't want to take a day off.
First, I am glad that the Mchenry County Blog started the thread. Because of the foundation of the blog, I pretty much know my thoughts will do little to change most folks thinking. That said, here are some responses and knew discussion points.

Year round school can have one or more goals and measures attached to it. First, most models will increase "space". This is good. There certainly would be an advatage to tax payers with respect to bond sales. Keeping the bulidings up to code and good repair could be a little more problematic. An easy metric. The other goal worth mentioning is reduction in lost learning. While this issue affects all of us, it can impact children of poverty at an alarming level. This is why one will see year round proposals is poorer communities or schools more often than say Crystal Lake. They also allow Hispanic students to travel back to Mexico during the winter months without missing as much instruction.

The real rub comes in when these proposals are brought foreward to the comminity. While the above goals and advantages are clear, folks are not really willig to allow the school to drive new thinking with their calendars. I believe that park districts and other agencies will adjust. But, that would be perceived as the "government school" being dictator like.

I would like the schedule for the same reasons Cal likes it. My family could traviel on off travel peaks. It does create [roblems at the high school level for kids who are in sports. The year round schedule in one district does not match the seasons.
 

Extreme Wisdom -

Dude - this is supposed to be a discussion. Your opening is a challange, not a discussion.

Funding is a huge fundemental issue. I think the reason we are not addressing it up front is that alot of us are still highly emotional about it from a recent referrendum or series of them.

But I will strongly disagree that "Any of the issues mentioned here, if addressed inside the existing pardigm, will achieve virtually nothing. Changing the entire paradigm is the only option." If you think anyone will adopt radical change like you propose in one bite, you have underestimated the status quo.

Tone down the rhetoric (when I read your line " Arguing over issues that, even if enacted, will merely be co-opted by the Establishment." it reminded me of that Black Panther in Forrest Gump", that guy was talking so loud and constant he could not hear anything).

Secondly, were here to discuss, not argue.

One question I have is how seperate schools would work. It seems that there are some benefits from grouping schools together.. mass buying, expertise for special education issues, common outcomes, etc. I also recognize that compettition should help (but won't that bring in marketing expense also?)

Maybe you could fill us in on some of the thousand details of this instead of using a tone that says "you all are dummer than dirt not to accept what I ahve said out of hand".
 

Yes we would have to move some sports around. Baseball, track and soccer could become summer sports. But that isn't a core education issue.

The core education issue to me is wether you would spread the 15 week summer around to between quarters or would you actually increase teaching time in the year?

Could raising teacher pay to full year levels for full year work be the renegotiating point to establish pay for performance or would the combination only kill both?
 

While all of us would probably agree the main issue of the year round school dialogue needs to be student achievement, one must also remember that the total school program includes activities. Without an agreement to have year round between communities that have separate school districts, extra curriculars would be difficult to schedule. For instance, if Crystal Lake High School District was using a year round schedule ans Harvard was not; moving the sport in one community puts the athlete in a difficult position if during his/her season the school on year round was not in session. Perhaps the discussion would need to be on a much larger scale than a single school district.
From my experience, most communities are not ready to change this outdated system that is currently used.
As far as would there be addtional pay, I am not sure. I do know that if no more days were worked there would be no reason for an increase.
 

Extreme Wisdom,
I agree with you, for the most part. It seems to me that consolidating small districts would be better than eliminating them entirely and that parents should be given the choice to keep their children at a state run school. Of the 26 charter schools in Illinois, nearly half of them(12) did not make "adequate yearly progress"(under NCLB) in the last year. See here (I do not know what that number is for other public schools in IL.)
 

I have thought alot about what changes could take place to improve the failing school system. I don't think throwing more money at the current system is going to raise test scores or children's functionality. I don't think putting charter schools into place is the total answer either. It has been evidence based demonstrated that with very little, much can be learned and accomplished with the right motivation of a true educator. Educare' in Latin, means "to draw out" ....inferring that whatever is taught to any of us is already inside, we just need someone smart enough to recognize it and show us that it is there! It is evidenced based that deficient curriculum begets deficient student achievement. I think having year round schools is meritous, but only if you do something with the actual teaching that goes on inside those schools. I don't think schools should be glorified expensive day care centers. I don't think kids need to work on "projects" when they cannot even read at their grade level. I don't think taxpayers should fund one more dollar to a school district that allows a senior in high school to graduate and they cannot even do a simple math problem! We are churning out yearly young people who are neither prepared for college nor the workforce, because they cannot comprehend what they are reading. How is that possible when we spend nearly $12,000 per year per student in Dist. 158? I don't think it is the kids' fault...I don't think it is entirely the teachers' faults, although, I do hold those who collect a paycheck from the district accountable...
I do think that WHAT is taught and HOW it is taught makes all the difference. Case in point: Everyday Math, and other similar curriculae was introduced into our district. Many students are just really falling down on their faces in school, right in the rough and tumble years of junior high....they aren't difficult to teach kids....they are bright...but the curriculum stinks! The Houghton McMillan Publishing Co. has a world core curriculum that is long on fluff, but completely lacking in subtance and application. While the Japanese are teaching their students high level math equations, our students are being taught Islamic belief systems in the name of tolerance and culturalization. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with Islam, or even teaching cultures in the classroom...but I do have a problem with curriculum that has over ridden basic core study with gobbledegook that will not help our country compete in the global market. We spend the most money in the world on education, but have the least educated people....so why is that, do you supppose? I went to the school board almost five years ago with this very concern. I was told that the administrator in charge of curriculum, (he makes six figures) would get in touch with me. I am still waiting for that phone call. When you have a school board that approves a curriculum that has never really been proven to work, such as the WHOLE LANGUAGE curriculum introduced over 20 years ago in California and was trash canned after 10 years because it was so lame, what is a parent to do? The Whole Language curriculum was introduced here some years ago. When I brought it to the B of E's attention that this was a curriculum that was really never proven, and in fact was a doctoral thesis that was just "written", they all nodded like bobbleheads and said "thank you"..."next!" and moved on. They approved a THEORY and allowed our students to be the test rats...and now we have kids in my daughter's senior high school literature class who cannot read even one paragraph out of their book out loud...and for this they want more money?? more referenda?? higher wages?? If ever there was a reason for malpractice, I think this would be it....if we are going to pay teachers and administrators professional level salaries, should they not be held accountable to the "product" they make? Schools held year round is not a bad idea, as long as kids are actually learning basic reading writing and math skills. But if we are just wanting the buildings to be utilized and we are willing to "entertain" kids for eight hours a day, then no change in scheduling will make a difference in their overall improvement.
 

Anyone for pros and cons on whether or not we should have school boards?

If the boards are mostly school biased individuals and images for the public to THINK they have input and someone protecting tax dollars (in addition to taking care of educating kids) - should we just dispense with the middle men/women?

Is there a way it would then be easier to keep the school system accountable?
 

I was sent an e-mail indicating that Cal created this section on Making Schools Better. I found out something applicable so I thought I would post.

For those who are interested, Connect 300 is having a meeting on April 5th from 7pm-9pm at Westfield School. I am not a member and I have never been to one of their meetings, but it might be an interesting forum.

Here is a link to their web site.
http://www.connect300cac.org
 

4piggybanks2,

Yes, there is a much better way of keeping schools accountable than school boards (which don't work). its called Parental Choice.

There is a lot of justifiable criticism against using standardized tests to provide accountability. The only accountability that should matter is accountability to the parents. This can be achieved directly by allowing parents to choose their child's school.

Some schools may decide that the best means to ensure accountability is with some sort of school board. Some will choose other means. The best part is, parents would get to decide for themselves whether a board is actually accountable.

So the short answer is: no, we should not have school boards, since they do not produce any accountability. Let parents choose their school. Unaccountable schools will lose students, money, and eventually their livelihood.
 

Peschkes:

As an involved parent I would love to have a choice in the school my child attends. I would like to send my children to a school where teachers are not tenured and keep their jobs only if it they are a good teacher. I would like the choice to change schools if I was not happy with curriculum, administrators and teachers.

However, in one of your earlier posts you say...

"So if a child is stuck with crappy parents the education system is not going to give him or her a step up in society. It is that mind set and the failure of our public school system that creates a cycle of poverty and is failing hundreds of thousands of minority students year after year."

I don't see how a "school of choice" program helps better the situation for these children. If their parents don't take the time or care enough to get educated on their choices for their children I'm sure it will be a choice of convenience. In these communities there will still be no pressure to improve the quality of education these students receive.

These are the students that the current system is failing the most.

I would like to see a plan where every child receives the same education - where children in inner city Chicago, Winnetka, or Decatur have the same programs and resources.

How is that accomplished?
 

Bystander,

A dose of reality we all need to face is that if a child's parents don't care, the child is doomed. No education bureaucracy is going to change that. What school choice provides is the means for caring parents to do something about their child's education.

But there are different degrees of caring. Its one thing to scrape up money to send your child to a private school, to homeschool, or to get tutoring. Its quite a lesser level to simply say "I'll find a good school and be done with it".

Option #2 is not ideal, but it doesn't take much effort and sacrifice, yet can still provide enormous benefits to the child. I think parents unwilling to take this minimalist approach are not as common as we pretend.

As far as every child receiving the same education, I consider this a horrific goal for a number of reasons.

First, this nation is already awash in conformity and certainly doesn't need any more.

Second, this approach would completely ignore the value systems of both parents and students (just as the government schools of today). Why should parents be forced into a "uniform" curriculum that glosses over areas they consider important while focusing on topics they consider irrelevant?

If educational uniformity were a good idea, colleges would adopt the model. They don't because they (even the "public" colleges) must respond to a market that demands variation.

Third, mandated uniformity would produce a "race to the bottom", exacerbated by the innate variations in children's learning abilities. This too occurs in the government schools, and is why our educational standards are the laughing stock of the developed world.
 

Dave Bishop - West Dundee

Thanks Dave. Haven't heard from you in a while. Hope all is well.

I have been to a connect300 meeting. I think community input is important, but at the meeting I attended, someone from D300 admin was at each table and kept us "on track", which meant we talked about the causes of the crisis that caused our recent referendum. Any attempt to discuss the things we discuss here were politely halted and tabled. Others may not have experienced what I did, but my wife went to a different session and she felt the same way.

So I think I have something more poductive to do that night. (and I will let oyu know what it is when I find it!)

Dave - hope you join us in this discussion. It would be interesting to hear what you think should be done to better our schools.
 

Peshkes:

I didn't say they have to be uniform. All I want is equal opporunity. Why shouldn't every student have access to computer classes or foreign language classes at the elementary school level? Why is that a luxury afforded only the richest school districts or private schools.

Curriculums could be decided on by the individual communities.

You also contradict yourselves. You say now that if the parents don't care a child is doomed. Yet earlier, you place the responisbilty for the child's future at the feet of the teacher's. You say they should be able teach anybody regardless of home situation. We can't have it both ways.

And unfortunately, there are ALOT of parents in this world that will not make the simple effort to choose a school - ALOT more than you think.
 

Conformity? Self-determination per district? My head spins!

Public education ='s education based on the public's ability to pay. The public's financial pie has to cover the armed services, aid to those who need food/heat/medical care, transportation, education etc.

We talk about a well-rounded education that includes a wide range of sports, photography, etc. Many things probably belong back in the category of clubs, private funding, instead of on the taxpayers' plate. And, in the attempt to be all things to all children (which would require a caviar budget), far too many still leave school barely able to read or do basic math.

However, trying to be all things to all children - allows the school industry to keep building itself into a bigger business. Even as it underperforms it grows like "The Blob" consuming every dollar in its path.

We turn out kids who learn that it is not only "okay" to abuse a legal "right" but that it will also be applauded by similarly minded self-appraising blood seekers.

Each district wants to separate itself from the whole of the public system. Each district wants to reinvent the wheel. Applause, applause, applause - give them an award for some lofty words inscribed on the walls of a building named in an industry's employee's honor. Screech, halt, stop the applause.

Take what a financially stressed but educationally successful district is doing right - use that as an immediate model and worry about getting applause for new theories later. Stop with the California "mission statements" and teach, teach, teach. Name the buildings, not after people whose names will soon be old news and replaced by the name of someone else a new generation knows, but for things that society has all but forgotten Integrity Campus, Freedom from Oppression Library, The Leadership Bldg.

The fact is, as a society, we've lost sight of the meaning of education in favor of a sports mentality "Our district is better than your district." District 158's kids in many cases weren't interested in welcoming any referendum failure displaced D300 kids into their halls. The idea of adding fresh sports talent to their school's student body made them hostile. Their "own" might be usurped. So much for compassion or truly seeking the best.

The pursuit of knowledge simply for the joy and potential it can embrace is too often dismissed in favor of "What will this get me?"

Survival? Yes.

All that we can be? I sure hope not.
 

Bystander,

You didn't say you wanted equal opportunity, you said:

"I would like to see a plan where every child receives the same education"

That is not the same as saying you want equal opportunity.

I did not contradict myself. I never said the responsibility for a child lies with the teacher; I know FAR better than to buy into that nonsense.

What we DO say is that teachers should be able to teach all types. I'm talking about kids who have trouble in certain areas. Low quality teachers just throw their hands up and say "I can't teach him". We spend far too much on schools in the country to accept excuses, no matter how well written.

Speaking of contradictions, teachers need to make a choice too. Either they need to abandon this "be all, do all" approach to funding, or they need to succeed in this area. Currently we have a school system that demands ever increasing resources because it wants to take care of every aspect of child raising.

Yet when this overfunded blob fails, teachers cry "Its the parents fault". No, its the school's fault, either by assuming the role of parent and failing, or by denying parents the resources they need through overtaxation and oppressive mandates.
 

Jim and Cathy,

I do not disagree with you in regards to the fact that some schools have failed some students. This is unacceptable to all of us. But, you are quick to assocaite these failures with all teachers. Yes, some teachers may throw up their arms, as you say, but far more continue to look for solutions.
In an earlier post you were talking about your experiences working with special education students. How did you measure the child's success during your experience? Would those measures be publicized in a School Report Card?
It seems as though that if only student achievement on a standardized test is used to measure success and service to families by a school and ultimately the teacher, many of your wonderful experiences at Sedol would be lost in translation.
Even when one dismisses these important celebrations of success, there is progress being made in the schools. The achievement gap between socioeconomic groups, ethnic, and special needs children is closing. Not fast enough, that's for sure, but it's a success.
My children are in college and I had only one experience when I thought that my child had a teacher who was probably one who throw up her arms. I confronted the situation at the classroom, office and administration building. I never feared or experienced any sort of negative feedback from this approach. Since I am not sure how this teacher worked with other students or families, I can not say for sure that she should have been fired.

One more comment. Cathy, I challenge you to work in a classroom of my choice for 3 months. (You can do this with no teacher certification. You can work as a substitute for this period of time. I assume that you have a Bachelor's degree.)The classroom will have this demographic make up: there will be thirty-five 3rd grade children. Of those students 90% of the students will come from poverty, 80% will be English language learners, and 10% will have a learning disability. We can base the success metric on your first day on the job. We will measure each child's reading level on day one. At the end of three months, we will measure again. Can I expect all of them to meet or exceed the agreed upon measure? We will compare their reading level to students who do not live in poverty, and speak only English in the home, and have no identified learning disablity. You can use any type of teaching that you want to use. You will have no responsibilty to the children's personal life situations. You will not have to report to any supervisor unless you need help or are in anyway a danger to the students. You will, however, keep in constant contact with each
student's parents in order to keep them informed of their child's progress toward the goal. In other words, it's all up to you. Will you accept the challenge?
 

I have been reading this section of the blog even though I said I wouldn't visit again. What can I say, education is an important issue and I couldn't resist.

In the spirit of the heading which is "Making Schools Better" I suppose problems have to be cited first and then solutions proposed.

Personally, I can only speak from my experiences based on my two kids who have been brought up through the D300 system. Even then, I can only speak from my experiences with Dundee Highlands, DMS and Jacobs. Overall, I am very pleased. My concerns aren't centered around the quality of education that my kids have been blessed with. The teachers and principals who have touched their young lives have been outstanding. I have received calls from teachers all throughout their education letting us know about issues and also calls letting us know about accomplishments. They have all made it a personal mission to educate our kids. From my perspective, the quality of the teacher's and the quality of the education our kid's benefit from is not a problem. I know some will differ.

All that said, there is a problem that does concern me and I may not make friends by posting this.

I am very concerned that for various reasons that: students almost lost their sports programs; students almost lost their music education programs; students almost lost 25% of their education due to a lost hour of class time; students came close to reducing their graduation requirements that could have impacted their admission to colleges; and parents and students were left in the dark regarding what time classes would start/end next school year.

Although I supported the referenda, I'll be honest in saying that I do in fact resent the fact that as a community we had to make such a decision. I'm not saying that it wasn't a proposal that had to be made under the circumstances, but that doesn't mean that I was happy about how it evolved into a need.

I'll even go out on a limb and say - there is no reason our community should ever have to make that choice again. Building new schools and staffing them is one issue that can be directly linked to growth in a district, but almost losing courses and programs because of that growth is not acceptable to me.

I am not sure what the problem really is, but I think the underlying cause is that as a community, we either don't have a true voice or we have a voice and we simply don't know how to use it.

I saw the statement in the paper that Dr. Arndt mentioned about not going back to the community until 2010 for another referendum. Although I have respect for him and I have seen first hand that he is interested in improving our school district and that he cares about the students, I'll admit, I wasn't happy to read that statement so soon after the referenda passed. Simply put, there is a lot of time between now and 2010 and I think planning to avoid another referendum is far more important than planning to vote on another one four/five years down the road. But that's my personal opinion.

When I refer to us not having a voice or not using our voice, here is an example. Within the next few months a new union agreement will be negotiated in D300. Where is our voice in that process? I know that we hire school board members by voting so we have a voice in who negotiates the agreement, but how do we get a chance to review the proposed agreement and state our concerns? Just so there is no confusion, I am not anti-teacher and I am not even anti-union. I simply have more questions than I do answers.

I will be honest in stating this opinion as well. Some of the clauses that I have heard about through the "gossip mill" should be revised if they are in fact in the contract. (I have submitted an e-mail request for a copy of the contract but I believe I will have to submit a formal FOI request.)

As for salaries, I don't think a blanket wage freeze should occur for all teachers at all levels, but I do think at levels above a certain point, it's time to buckle down, especially in those salary ranges where there is a significant separation from the average for schools compared to our district. Which by the way, that also includes possibly boosting salaries at the lower end to better compete with other comparable districts. I'm not suggesting taking money away or reducing salaries - only salary level freezes and scale adjustments for the future.

So if we vote on a referendum, why don't we get a chance to vote on a union contract? It's easy to get our individual voices heard, but how do we use those voices to make an impact? I really am asking because I would like to know.

Another area where I don't believe we have a voice or we don't use our voice is for such things as TIF's. I was disgusted to find out that our district loses so much money from TIF's like those given to the Sears Corporate Headquarters. The school board didn't vote on that. I never got a chance to vote on that. Who do we express our opinion to about TIF's so that it doesn't happen again? As I understand it, from the Sears TIF alone, we would have gained at least another $3 million in funding from taxes for our district.

This post isn't meant to bash any group of people at all, especially not teachers and our district management. In fact it's the opposite - I want to help. I'm sure teachers and principals don't like wondering whether their programs will be cut or whether or not they will have jobs from one year to the next either.

This post is meant as a plea to try to figure out how we can all roll up our sleeves and participate as community in the decision process of our school system. I don't know if any teachers, administrators, school board members, village board members, mayors or other people of infuence read this blog, but if so, please post even if it's anonymous to let us know how we can be heard and how we can help. Does the school board and village board appreciate letters and petitions or is it considered problematic? What can we seriously do to make a difference and help overall?

If by 2010 we really need another referendum, I'll be out there once again going door-to-door even though I won't have kids in D300. But for now, I have great difficulty in accepting that four/five years from now that students will be wondering once again if they will have their music programs cut. I know as a community we are better than that and now we have time to make a difference.

Dave Bishop
West Dundee
 

Spoken quietly -

It's a little late NOW to wonder how to have power over how the union or the district spends its YES vote blank check.

Residents performed like emotional little puppets as was intended. Their work is now done.

The kids got the candy. The school industry got the taxpayers' meat and potatoes.

The same argument from before will be repeated (droning) "WE have to be competitive (or lead) in salaries and benefits or we will have to hire the floaters at the bottom of the teaching pool." "Oh, gosh WE (the board/administrators) wish WE could do something more for the taxpayers, but, our consultant says we have to bite the bullet and cough up the bucks. Gosh, oh darn, oh golly. Woe is us."

There might be a PR bone or two thrown to the public in some mini-concession after planted scuttlebutt about huge demands nearing the negotiation table. In the end, the union will get what it wants.

Your leverage? Follow the money. You filled in the YES circle. That was your chance to stop the train.

I would certainly encourage people to hold the District's and Union's feet to the fire.

Welcome to the world of "gnats".
 

Mr. Bishop:

I think the key to being heard by village boards, school boards, legislatures, etc. is to organize a group of like-minded people and speak with one voice. The residents in your district organized and worked towards a Yes, Yes vote on the referenda. Take that manpower and channel it into a community action group that holds your school board responsible for how it spends your money.

If they approve a contract that you are not happy with, don't re-elect them. Run against them when their position is up.


To ALL...

I have a legitimate question on teacher salaries, forget averages, forget annual increases - what do we think a fair wage for a good teacher is? If we switched to a merit pay system, where would you like to see the pay scale start? Would there be a cap on what a successful teacher could earn?

Students in foreign countries have outpaced American students. Americans are lagging behind. What do successful programs look like? Do they offer sports, music, art? When do they start learning foreign languages and technology? Do they have year round school? Do they offer schools of choice or is it a public school system? Who finances the school system - federal or local governments or parents themselves? How do they address children with learning challenges?

If anybody has any links they can post to get this information, I would love to read it.
 

Monelson,

This is challenging issue, and it has been "discussed" to death in a "non-challenging" context for too long, IMO.

I don't think my admittedly aggressive posting implied that anyone here is "dumb." If anyone feels that way, please accept my apologies. (but get some skin thickner, too).

The topic here is "making schools better" and I submit that bolder and more aggressive reform is needed. Though I tend to agree with your take that "radical change" is unlikely at this time, it certainly isn't likely at all if no one talks about it.

Since I'm of the view that the current system is so broken that "radical change" has become the only option, you'll have to forgive me for pointing out the insufficiency of all of your good ideas (I'm not being sarcastic here).

Regarding "toning it down"...I'm chuckling a little. My first post laid out the idea without a single rhetorical attack. It gave a nod to your point that "1000s of details" need to be addressed, and...no one said a word.

My second post got some attention. You are on to something about the "shouting," but sometimes you have to shout.

All of that said, let me attempt to address your questions.
__

Q. How would seperate schools work?

A. This may be too "libertarian" an answer, but...why don't we find out? One of the biggest obstacles to improvement is this notion that we all have to know about "how it is going to turn out if we do "X"

Given the abysmal track record of welfare state intrusion in "fixing problems, and their stellar track record in creating massive "unforeseen consequences," I vote for a healthy dose of "let's try it and see what happens."

The idea that no reform can be enacted until it is proven to be perfect is an ideological ploy of the current defenders of the status quo.

Q. Nice speech Extreme Wisdom, but how would seperate schools work?

A. Here are a few thoughts/starting principles.

1. Each school should become independent of other schools and districts first. Let each be it's own 501c3 entity. The US has tons of talent to offer in terms of NFP management & governance.

District assets and liabilities should be devolved to schools on something close to a per capita (student) basis.

2. Mass Buying?

A. I suggest buying "An Army of Davids" by Glenn Reynolds (instapundit). The "Economies of scale" argument has become pretty weak, particularly when applied to the Education Establishment.

I've rec'd tons of emails (and the papers are full of stories) describing how schools "buying policies" prevent simply going to Staples and getting what you need for cheap. Instead, connected distributors charge high (and protected) prices. Let's not pretend this doesn't go on everywhere.

Another thing we all need to get comfortable with is the fact that content is now essentially free. A good teacher could draw up a lesson plan available on the internet for free. The "Text book Industry" should be about 1/8th of it's current size, and parents meeting with teachers ought to be choosing them - not 892 Administrators choosing from the same 2-3 connected companies churning out the same shoddy product.

http://www.illinoisloop.org/textbooks.html

-

This is just a start.

I ask that all of us start questioning the entire scheme (and it is a scheme) of Public Education. Whether reforms are incremental or dramatic, it just doesn't have to be this expensive.
 

Bystander asked:

"I would like to see a plan where every child receives the same education - where children in inner city Chicago, Winnetka, or Decatur have the same programs and resources."

My response:

The perfect is the enemy of the good. Though a choice system that funded every child equally would get us 95% of the way there, the fact remains that SOME ONE SOMEWHERE wouldn't do as well as SOMEONE ESLE.

The demand for perfection before reforms are enacted is one reason we are stuck with this unsustainable system.

In a more mechanical answer, the fact remains that if Lake Forest is spending $15,000/student, there is just no way that you are going to get that level in Maywood or North Chicago.

That Statewide tax increase necessary to fund such largess would send every single one of us to FL, TX or AZ.

You have to bring the spending levels in the Flush Suburbs down. If a yuppie isn't happy with an $8,000 scholarship, they can make up the difference themselves instead of taxing their neighbors out of their homes.

Conversely, you free up the system through making all schools charters that compete in the market, and those kids in North Chicago and the inner-city will get a GREAT education with $8,000.

They will even have money left over to save for college. (which, if invested in IL Bonds, can be used to fix the pension problems caused by education bureaucray largess.)

As elegant as it is Bold...
 

Extreme Wisdom:

At least you put yourself out there with a real plan.

So the money tied to each child (in the form of a scholarship/voucher whatever you would like to call it) - where would that come from? I know you want to abolish local property taxation. Who would collect and distribute the new tax for education - our bankrupt state?

At first your plan seemed so radical but after further review - it has its appeal.

Parents could choose a year round school if they want, they could choose a school based on the curriculum they value ....

Would every school have to take every student that applied (such as the public school does) or would kids be subjected to testing and standards prior to admission?

Would the schools be allowed to operate for a profit (what better way to control spending but to be motivated by the bottom line)?

You have given us food for thought.
 

Amy,

Your post highlights so many illustrations of the weakness of incremental reforms that I don't know where to start.

Why so few charters?

Why have the legislation written so that the District has the power to deny charters? To get past the district gauntlet, they have pretty much give up the very autonomy might produce a better product.

Why should charters be suspect due to NCLB results when whole swaths of legacy schools/districts suffer no real financial detriment for continuing AYP failure?

Why is the NCLB scheme so ineffective at actually improving reading and math skills?

http://www.illinoisloop.org/test.html

Why was the testing regime of NCLB co-opted before it even started.

http://www.illinoisloop.org/test.html
___

Why has "consolidation" of Districts AND breaking up Districts yielded the same result (higher spending)?

http://www.illinoisloop.org/schoolsize.html#districtsize

Sure, smaller is better IF you desire the efficiency of being close to the student. But that isn't what happens. Each district yields one more Superintendent, Ass. Supts. Curriculum Managers, Ass. Curriculum Managers, Directors, Ass. Directors

and on and on.

____

As long as the money is diverted to the education bureaucracy, they will find a way to spend it on the bureaucracy first - with the children as an afterthought.

Give the $$ directly to the parents, and they will very rapidly figure out what educates their child and what doesn't.
 

Hooray.
Huzzah.
Yada Yada.
Blah. Blah. Blah.

Today - More stories about the mean old State/Govt. not putting enough money into the school industry. Groups want to join hands and wear colors to force the State/Govt. to put more money in.

Right.

WE - TAXPAYERS - ARE "the State/Govt." - so what am I missing?

If the "State/Govt" (US) has to cough up more money for the school industry, what programs get cut?

What do we stop funding?

Aid to destitute parents who can't afford formula? Warming centers for the homeless? Armed Services?

What do we stop funding so more money can go into a school industry that wants to pay its emploees more than the public can afford? That supports a closed group of profit makers?

Yep, let's all rush to Springfield on a union flying carpet and demand more money from ------ ourselves.............cough.
 

Bystander,

Thanks.

1. Where does the money come from?

Swap zeroing out of ED. Property tax with HB750 state increases. It turns out to be a net tax cut for most of IL, and a wash for the rest.

The state gets about $8 bn. which you add to current $7 bn state and $1.8 bn federal. You have enough for around $7,-7500/student.

index it for inflation, but nothing else. The costs will drop as competition sets in.

2. Profit/Not-for-Profit shouldn't be an issue.

After the "break up of the monopoly" we will probably see some companies form to "buy" the management of schools (yes, the legislation could be messy and dirty).

Further, some companies will enter the market. Look for Sylvan and Huntington to "cash in" on their expertise.

I'm fairly agnostic about these issues. The way I see it, as long as the parent/consumer maintains control over the education dollar, the highest value will be found eventually.

3. This also addresses the "how much should a teacher earn?" question.

Not to be rude, but why are we even asking? Let me throw out an extreme scenario.

If I invented a pill that would educate your child (according to your specifications) for one year/dose, and charged you a dollar for that pill (I'd make $2.2 million a year in IL, BTW), then how much should a teacher earn?

The fact that we ask that question is an illustration of how thoroughly our thinking is locked into the current paradigm.

Sylvan pays a "teacher" $8-15/hour to sit at a triangular table assisting 3 kids at a time with what ever content they are focusing on. (3 kids / class!!)

I'm not arguing that teachers are only worth $8-15/hour. I'm arguing that as a matter of policy, the electorate should focus on the BEST education it can get for the LOWEST cost to the society.

Markets accomplish this far better than politicians or bureaucracies. It's time we have an education system that is FOR OUR SOCIETY, and not for the protected class of bureaucrats that has currently 'privatized' $500,000,000,000 for their industry.
 

State Rep. Delores Doederlein of East Dundee represented District 300 when the Sears TIF deal was enacted by the General Assembly.

I was standing next to her the night it passed. She asked me something like, "My district wouldn't be in favor of this, would it?"

I expressed my opinion that they would not.

She voted against it.

If you want to stop Tax Increment Financing Districts, you usually have to do it at the municipal level.

If you don't want your taxes to increase, I would encourage you to oppose them.

TIFs benefit the developers and other property owners in the TIF district and actually lead to increased taxes for everyone else.

What a deal!
 

Extreme -

I don't even have the energy tonight to debate you. You have practiced your rhetoric and mantra too long for me. I have a very thick skin, but was hoping for a calm discussion that shows respect for the other person in the discussion. You have tried to dominate and bully everyone here.

Just two questions - If you know you are so correct and have so many of the answers, then why do we still have the problems? Why haven't you fixed them?

Maybe I will find the energy tommorrow to challange some of your bs statements like suugesting that "I've rec'd tons of emails (and the papers are full of stories)". Bad purchasing habits exist everywhere, that does not mean there is not merit to purchasing on a large scale basis. If that were true, how can Cosco, Sam's Club and even your example Staples work. So do not dismiss it because you can prove alot of schools have stupid purchasing habits.

By the way, how can it be "tons of email", given the wieght of email? Want a discussion, let's have one. Lose the huge chip on your shoulder and quit suggesting we get thicker skins and lets have a discussion...
 

Does anyone know where I can get the following information or data (on-line if possible) for D300 and other Fox Valley school districts:

* Listing Of Active & Proposed TIF Agreements.
* Active, Proposed and Past Union Contracts.
* Employee Attrition Statistics Covering The Last Three Years.
* Comprehensive Index Of Documents Available To The Public By Request.

If anyone has the documents I mentioned above, please post the location of the document, a source to get the information or better yet - please share it with me via e-mail at dkjbishop@sbcglobal.net.

I just want to do some research to answer my own questions based on information that is as close to true facts as possible.

Dave Bishop
West Dundee
 

Cal

I am not sure i do not like TIF's per say. On the one hand, let's examine Sears as an example. While it probably should pay more for essential services (fire, saftey, transport, streets), it has not increased school costs one bit. Now I know many of you are heading for your keyboards to respond, but hear me out. The Sears headquarters does not add a single student to D300, does it? No it's tha families who moved out here to be closer to thier jobs that added to the schools. Sears certainly does not owe any taxes to support that. As has been discussed here, that is an issue of lagging taxes, poor or no impact fees, etc. We need to fix those issues. The TIF was actually good for the local communities - it brought in more buyers, income, etc.

What is bad about TIF's is that they have communities competeing against each other with a tool sthat should not be allowed. It does cause taxes else where to go up to compensate ( again I do not think it changes school funding though).

Let's get rid of TIFS, but it won't fix the school funding issues. While I find Extreme a little Extreme, he is right that continuing to tweek the multi layered system we have today is not going to work. It's like trying to hold a rabbit ears antenna to get a good TV signal..it may fix it for a while, but it won't fix it for long.
 

The Sears TIF was a state-imposed one, I believe. (Maybe it allowed a cooperating Hoffman Estates to do it locally. I can't remember.)

I do know that because Crystal Lake city officials created 3 TIFs this past year that my taxes in Lakewood will go up. They will be raised by my two school districts, the park district, the township, the county, the county conservation district and the county college to make up for what will be siphoned off by the city fathers and mothers.

A TIF breaks the chain of responsibility. Those who are forced to pay more cannot take it out on Crystal Lake's city fathers unless they live in Crystal Lake...unless, of course, they have enough money to buy leaflets and spread them all over town, as was the case last fall.

I would argue that it is bad government to allow officials to raise taxes on people they do not represent...although, I would admit, public officials try to export taxes to non-residents all the time.
 

Monelson,

Why dost thou persecute me? As aggressive as I am on the issue at hand, I really don't think I've "bullied" anyone here.

None of the responses to your questions were meant to convey any disrespect, nor do I think my answers lack "calm."

_____

Back to mass purchasing...

Your point about Sam's and Costco is valid, but where is the evidence that it has been applied to education spending.

Let's stipulate to the fact that every school needs pencils, paper, and a copier (among other things)

Let's also stipulate to the fact that a district may have more "purchasing power" than a single school.

How much more power? Is there any measurement of how many percentage points a "mass buyer" can shave off a price? Probably. Will a District have the same "shaving power" as WalMart when they control 3 schools (instead of 4000+ stores)?

What about the "single school" District like OPRF (Oak Park River Forest?) How much purchasing power does that have?

Next, let's look at the percentage their purchasing power shaves off and compare it to the cost of the "Purchasing Director(s)."

I'd be happy if we lived in an age when the teacher, principal, or his/her secretary could go to Sam's or Costco and buy a box of pencils with out the rubberstamp of a bureaucrat or an act of the Legislature. As you so effectively point out, they've done much of the heavy lifting in price cutting for us.

___

For a glimpse of some of the e-mails I'm talking about, try this post.

What it lacks in electrons, it makes up for in content.

As for the "stories" I referred to, I'm talking generally about the numerous stories per month and 100s per year that outline the many anomolies in District Management.

I could go in the wayback machine and find the series of stories in the Tribune that outlined the millions Vallas discovered wasted, stored, pilferred and/or rotting in the Chicago schools when he took over.

Huge District, huge purchasing power, massive waste.

___

Let's do this. You find me a "bs" statement I made, and force me to defend it. If I overstated my case, I'll cop to it.

Until then, save up your energy. What you call "rhetoric" and "mantra" are actually 1000s of hours of thought, energy, debate and genuine searching for answers on education.

BTW, in my view, this IS a discussion, and a darn fine one.
 

Extreme -

Thanks for a discussion of mass purchasing. I think the issue here is really how or if we can get larger administrative bodies like school districts to act responsibly. In this example, squeeze vendors, etc.

And this problem arises constantly in such discussions. Your proposed alternative to let individual schools work independently can brings a posibility for better accountability. On the other it also lowers the level of available expertise in areas such as purchasing, IT, etc.

What's you feeling on how another central service - transportation (bussing) be done. Convetional wisdon and approach today is that the district does it. Some do it better than others. Do we let outside vendors provide it and let families contract for it themselves, getting it otu of the tax realm all together?
 

Schools can already buy off the list developed by the Illinois Department of Central Management Services.
 

Re: mass buying power

Thanks Cal, it's been bugging me since the topic came up and I remember something from a year or two ago. .... a new deal

Don't know if this link will work or not - or if it's a separate deal from the one Cal has shown. There are assorted links - some even tie to Office Depot I believe.

I asked a friend who is part of a PTO why they were still going crazy buying supply packs - never could quite get an answer. I asked a couple of school people and got the idea that districts like to play by themselves for the most part. What makes sense to the average person - might not be what the "powers" of a district want to do. Suggest approaching the specific district/districts involved and bugging them for SPECIFICS so as not to get fluffed off. Also would suggest a call to the ISBE to get details - I'm thinking available may not mean mandatory.

http://www.isbe.net/news/2005/june16_05.htm

For Immediate Release
June 16, 2005

Illinois State Board of Education launches Illinois School Purchasing Network
Program offers savings opportunity to school districts
 

Monelson,

Your question about busses is a good one. Under the current model, transport becomes a "goodie" that most parents view as another entitlement attached to "free schooling" (Inside the current paradigm, this is perfectly rational behavior)

It also exposes one of the 'political' weaknesses of my idea. People want goodies more than they want empowerment (for with empowerment comes responsibility)

I would argue that if parents were in control of the decision processes, these things would work out on their own.

For example, once the opportunity to choose a school arose, the issue of getting on a bus would immediately take a back seat (oh the opporutunity for puns) to more important decisions like curricula.

(I'd argue that this is how it should be.)

Further, as the market developed, new schools would pop up in numerous locations, while parents would 'self-organize' to address transport needs.
___

I suppose one could read all this an argue that I'm way off in the clouds of social psychology and theoretical economics.

While that is a fair critique, my response is that it's important that we become conscious of the nature of the system we've created. Social commentators on the liberal side of the spectrum read books like "Bowling Alone" and question what has happened to "community".

They never seem to ask how current social structures (education being one of the largest structures we've created) worked to destroy our links with each other.

The tax system alone in IL operates to warehouse old people in homes (or the South) while rich white yuppies create tax structures that drive out all but the high earning white yuppies.
___

Cal,

That fact that there is a "list developed by the Illinois Department of Central Management Services" pretty much proves my point.

I'll bet that if you added up all the time spent by people managing, developing, debating, and then complying with this list, it comes to $millions of dollars/year.

For what?

Put $7000 in the hand of a parent and have that parent ask themselves "what is the best way to apply this money to my child's education," and all the "expertise" Monelson speaks of (and I'm not denying his broader point) will beat a path to that parent's door. (or to the door of the school that parent chooses)
 

The point I was trying to make was that state government already has a bulk purchasing program for state government agencies to which local governments (including schools) can purchase from.

I compared it with a leading mail order house's prices and the mail order house was not cheaper.
 

Cal,

Consider your point, and Monelson's proven. We hope.

1. Are the prices there subsidized from some other source? If it's cheaper because one of Rod's buddies is getting money from some other state checkbook, I think all bets are off.

2. If it's cheaper because of greater bargaining power of collective buying, then let's keep it, and allow all the new independent charters purchase through it.

___

Didn't the state auditor general find CMS "saving" to be massively over stated by Sir Rodney? Is this a different issue? I defer to your greater level of experience in this area.
 

The study was done in the mid-1980's.
 

Extreme -

Remeber that bussing is paid for by all and used by those "unlucky" enough to be too far from school to walk. And your right, this loss of communal payment for transportation would be politically a downer.

What suprised me in your last post was the comment"Further, as the market developed, new schools would pop up in numerous locations, while parents would 'self-organize' to address transport needs."

Do you really think schools would pop up all over the place?

In summary, you have suggested for the pooling of all education support and allocating back to students at a fixed amount, which they can spend at independently run schools, which would compete for thier business. After the distribution of initial assets and working capital to the existing schools, they would operate on thier own as at least quasi private businesses.

Under your model I do not see where the new schools that will pop up would get the capital to build a building. And if they leased space, wouldn't that put them at a severe disadvantage against schools who got a piece of the original pie? Sounds like the $7XXX number would have to include some annual capital component to fund the space requirement. (remeber in the states current ed fund only goes for expenses and to districts with an existing infrasrtucture.)
 

I cannot let the discussion about TIF's go by...

First, let me say that I think TIF's can be used in a very negative way, When two communities compete for a development with TIF's, we all suffer. If TIF's are used to help create new businesses or bring in new investment from outside the US, they can be a very positive force.

As for the Sears TIF, did it really negatively impact D300? Does the Sears headquarters generate any requirement for services on D300? The answer is no. In fact, D300 has how many well paid residents living in highly valued houses in our district that would not be paying taxes if they had not moved here to be close to work?

D300 admin threw the Sears TIF in to the referendum debate as smoke. The funding isues in D300 come from bad planning, failure to anticipate and poor administration.

The real issue here is wether the TIF created to hold Sears HQ in Illinois, or to get it to move from Chicago to Hoffman Estates? If it was the latter, then we all have probably paid higher taxes because of it. If it was the former, then I believe we are no worse off.
 

monelson:

I understand the points you make regarding TIF's. My biggest concern regarding a TIF is that the communities that will feel the brunt or realize the benefits from the TIF, don't have a chance to vote on it such as with a referendum.

Additionally, communities close to a TIF district benefit in much the same way as the community "carrying" the TIF without the property tax loss.

For example, Schaumburg benefits from the Sears TIF since Sears in Hoffman Estates hires employees who live in Schaumburg. I suppose from a selfish perspective, most TIF's are good if they aren't in our own backyard.

Here is a link to interesting information regarding TIF's in Illinois: www.illinois-tif.com

It's biased but it is interesting.
 

Dave -

There was no property tax loss. D300 was not getting anything from the empty lot that occupied that part of the property. the Poplar Creek Music center was at the end of the property and outside D300.
Now if you told me D300 does not get any property tax from it, I would agree with you. It never did.
It's not a "loss".